Curse

maxxfury · Jan 29, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Crits on a sword aint worth taking sin over War, damage is too low... Scythe on the other hand crits biiig!"

blue.rellik · Jan 29, 2009, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Silly rellik, I would have thought all those exclamation marks and silly spelling would have kinda pointed out that I was being facetious

Some people will never learn

thinkingofaname · Feb 15, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Couple things:
For pure dps, sin wins...because of the skill called Asuran scan. War can use it too, but they don't have enough energy to keep casting it.

Look at my screen shot to see how much damage a sin can do, note that I would have even higher Dps if i picked Reaper over wounding strike, and my Asuran rank is very low.

For killing things, not only you need high dps, but also deep wound. Pvpers all know a melee without deepwound is useless, same apply for pve too if you want things to die fast.

But the game isn't about pure dps, as people mentioned earlier, utility matters. However, I consider all utility on a melee (in pve) to be worthless except KD and SY.

KD is where a war shines, because only they have 3 second KD, combined with some pve KD skill a war can keep a target perma locked. Both sin and war can bring SY, both can keep it up equally well at high levels.

As a last thought, the correct way to use MB chain is L-O-D1-MB-D2. The double dual is a must since with IAS since the first dual is still recharging (yes including DB) when you finish MB, and just like pvp, the chain can be competed in ~2-3 secs and instant kill anything with 500 Hp (with deep wound), combine with Asuran scan, the chain could finish off a full lvl 24 or lower monster in one go.

Sin also has the skill called sin remedy, which basically allows you to be immune to condition, including blind.

Bobby2 · Feb 15, 2009, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

Couple things:
For pure dps, sin wins...because of the skill called Asuran scan. War can use it too, but they don't have enough energy to keep casting it.

[warrior's endurance]

Super Igor · Feb 15, 2009, 12:15 PM // 12:15

I think that people who say warriors outdamage sins in pve are shitting, sins blow things up much faster and allow for much more utility. In pvp great unfluence on why warriors are preferred other two melee prof is armor and better pressuring skills like KD and they can do it all day really but no cant say they spike better than sins and now when sins got their epic pew pew skill [palm strike] I would put war's pressure abilities under question aswell.

Tyla · Feb 15, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

So you need to sacrifice at least 4 skill slots to do your shit and you're saying that 'Sins can carry more utility? And that 'Sins can blow things up faster despite the fact that D-Slash / Whirlwind Attack with enough buffs can severely outdamage MS/DB, while being stronger for reaching that damage?

With MS/DB if your target dies too fast youre not getting enough DB or you might miss MS assuming you're killing. With Palm Strike, I hope you're kidding.

Vazze · Feb 15, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

Couple things:
For pure dps, sin wins...because of the skill called Asuran scan. War can use it too, but they don't have enough energy to keep casting it.

Just a note on your screenshot. Crytical scythe is largely normal weapon attack, it does NOT ignore armor. So the 200DPS is gonna come down to ~100 against a decent armor (I usually compare DPS at 110 armor), which is already lower than what a war can do. You can still argue that scythe AoE (adjacent, bah), no need for sin chain attack (true), has deep wound (nice), etc but it is not like you "can blow up things" while the warrior is doing manicure on target.

Age · Feb 15, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

Couple things:
For pure dps, sin wins...because of the skill called Asuran scan. War can use it too, but they don't have enough energy to keep casting it.

Look at my screen shot to see how much damage a sin can do, note that I would have even higher Dps if i picked Reaper over wounding strike, and my Asuran rank is very low.

For killing things, not only you need high dps, but also deep wound. Pvpers all know a melee without deepwound is useless, same apply for pve too if you want things to die fast.

But the game isn't about pure dps, as people mentioned earlier, utility matters. However, I consider all utility on a melee (in pve) to be worthless except KD and SY.

KD is where a war shines, because only they have 3 second KD, combined with some pve KD skill a war can keep a target perma locked. Both sin and war can bring SY, both can keep it up equally well at high levels.

As a last thought, the correct way to use MB chain is L-O-D1-MB-D2. The double dual is a must since with IAS since the first dual is still recharging (yes including DB) when you finish MB, and just like pvp, the chain can be competed in ~2-3 secs and instant kill anything with 500 Hp (with deep wound), combine with Asuran scan, the chain could finish off a full lvl 24 or lower monster in one go.

Sin also has the skill called sin remedy, which basically allows you to be immune to condition, including blind.

When thinking about this keep PvE skill out of it.When those are removed who then has the higher dps and check it at the master of damage with pvp on.

thinkingofaname · Feb 15, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

Just a note on your screenshot. Crytical scythe is largely normal weapon attack, it does NOT ignore armor. So the 200DPS is gonna come down to ~100 against a decent armor (I usually compare DPS at 110 armor), which is already lower than what a war can do. You can still argue that scythe AoE (adjacent, bah), no need for sin chain attack (true), has deep wound (nice), etc but it is not like you "can blow up things" while the warrior is doing manicure on target.

You are not understanding the concept of armor. High armor reduce all non-armor ignoring damage in equal proportions. Scythe has the 2nd highest dps of all weapons (hammer being 1st), meaning all things equal, scythe will do more damage than a sword or axe no matter what armor you are hitting. With critical bonus from a sin, scythe become THE hardest hitting weapon in the game. The only non-uniform factor vs different armor is + damage from skills (which ignore armor). Dslash does have one of the highest +damage (~40s), however, with aura of holy might and Asuran scan, it will add up to +100% to ALL of the damage from scythe, INCLUDING the +damage part, this makes scythe attack bonus (+50s) per hit, which exceed Dslash, on top of the normal damage (which is already the highest in game). So all in a nut shell, the damage you see are from DOUBLING THE highest dps weapon in game AND DOUBLING strong but not the strongest +dmg in game. As a side note, dslash war has to pick physical (vamp) weapon, which produce highest dps but is weak vs + physical armor from war, or element weapon, which produce lower dps but is weak vs +elemental armor from ranger. Aura of holy might from scythe sin covert all damage to holy, so no specific +armor resistance and you deal 200% vs undead.

War endurance gives war energy, but it means you have no elite, thus Crit scythe with elite > WE scythe with no elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

When thinking about this keep PvE skill out of it.When those are removed who then has the higher dps and check it at the master of damage with pvp on.

This is the campfire, a place to discuss PvE aspect of the game. Unless the TC has specified no pve skills, your point is invalid.

There is no point in discussing pure dps in pvp, because dps alone does not get you kills or win you games. Thus either way its a moot point.

Tyla · Feb 16, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Power Attack > Critical Strikes. Don't use Asuran Scan in your argument if you want to "win", because the Warrior will most likely have Warriors' Endurance, so the Warrior can spam both skills, the Warrior gets the Power Attack bonus strengthened by AoHM and Asuran Scan, discounting other damage buffs while fueling adrenal skills for free (assuming you're not using Wild Blow).

Also, Critstrikes is a lot weaker than Power Attack with all the given buffs. Deep Wound can be appied once and once only, and that includes all of your party members. It could come from anyone, and possibly the strongest source is through "Finish Him!", lowering armour in the process. Can be used on a Necromancer using Assassins Promise with several other buffs too.

thinkingofaname · Feb 16, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Power Attack > Critical Strikes. Don't use Asuran Scan in your argument if you want to "win", because the Warrior will most likely have Warriors' Endurance, so the Warrior can spam both skills, the Warrior gets the Power Attack bonus strengthened by AoHM and Asuran Scan, discounting other damage buffs while fueling adrenal skills for free (assuming you're not using Wild Blow).

Also, Critstrikes is a lot weaker than Power Attack with all the given buffs. Deep Wound can be appied once and once only, and that includes all of your party members. It could come from anyone, and possibly the strongest source is through "Finish Him!", lowering armour in the process. Can be used on a Necromancer using Assassins Promise with several other buffs too.

Are you serious? What you mean power attack > critical strikes? Critical strikes buff critical %, is a passive bonus, and makes scythe deadly due to high critical damage, power attack is a good +damage attack skill ... just like many scythe attack skills.

Have you ever used scythe WE before? Actually have you played melee before?

First i assume you are talking scythe WE, in which case there is no attack skill that requires adrenaline, thus no way to buff your dps through adrenaline attacks. If you are not talking about scythe WE, then AoHM does not work, and this whole argument is moot.

Second, because all attack skills for scythe require energy, you can not upkeep AoHM, Asuran scan, and spam attack skill even with WE.

Third, you have no reliable source of deep wound besides pious assault, which has 12 second recharge, and will drain your energy that upkeep AoHM and Asuran scan will be impossible. I really hope you are joking about Finish Him!. It cost 10 energy and 15 sec recharge, and must be cast on foes under 50%. So a conditional deep wound every 15 second and must be cast from another party member? The whole lower armor thing have to be a joke...deep wound + damage + <50% = death. There is no point in lower armor, because that target WILL die in another hit or so.

If you are experienced in playing melee, you should know that YOU the attacker must have a reliable deep wound. Give me a single viable melee build that does not have deep wound.

As a side note, I thought we are talking about sin vs war dps here, not team based builds? You can not say I do this much damage because monk is buffing me with SnH and nec is helping me with barbs... Again, relying on other party members mean you restrict what they can carry, then we step into the realms of team builds...which is not the point of this thread.

Last thought, I don't know what you mean by trying to "win" this thread, I'm arguing a point, and backed it up with solid evidence and build. If you try to counter argue my statement, i suggest you do the same.

Chthon · Feb 16, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

1. The answer to "who has more DPS?" depends greatly on whether you count the intra-team synergies or not.

If you let a Hundred Blades+Whirlwind warrior count 50% of the damage he generates by triggering curses (and 50% of the damage he gets from Orders, GDW, EBSofHonor, etc.), then he's miles and miles ahead of any other melee and third behind the necro who's throwing those curses and the minion master (who we also count with 50% of the damage from the minions triggering curses, plus OoU and EBSofHonor).

If you want to limit your view to the four corners of your skillbar, then MS+DB can't be beat.

For my money, the right way to look at things is from a team perspective, and that favors the warrior. (MS+DB is certainly "good enough" though.)

2. Stop talking about scythes. Armor-sensitive damage = poo. End of story. Doesn't matter which class is wielding it, they're still mediocre. To make matters worse, AoHM (and avatar forms) coverts your damage type, so you can't share in many of those great intra-team synergies.

Tyla · Feb 16, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

I'm going to cut this short. Power Attack is stronger than most scythe attack skills with runes involved, and with the other attack skills you only get stronger including the buffs. "Finish Him!" coming from an ally with Assassins' Promise isn't wrong. Why spend your elite on something attainable by other means, but with more power? Tell me, are you trying to solo this game or something? Cutting off all other possibilities of allies is just dumb. Looking at one versus another is just dumb too, because what about other possibilities? What about this game being a team game? The buffs are so strong that missing them out will only hurt the discussion.

I'm also going to ask you if you even know the strength of WE. Learn how to position yourself and tell your allies to suck less if agro isn't tight, because in PvE, it should be, and unless it's a heavily scattered mob or the mob is near enough dead, you should be hitting enough people to get 6 energy every 2ish seconds.

Also, another point is that Warriors are less dependant on enchantments (whereas an Assassin is a lot more dependant on them), they gain buffs from Asuran Scan (chosen targtet only), AoHM, Power Attack and Strength discounting the other million buffs you could use to further that damage. Critical Scythe is good, but the fact that AoHM, Asuran Scan and such multiply (not sure of the formula, however) with the buffs from Strength and +damage greatly surpasses that of an Assassin.

Again, Deep Wound can be applied once and only once on an enemy. This can be applied by anyone. There are plenty of melee builds which don't carry Deep Wound which are successful in PvE, because in PvE, you don't have to be as spikey as opposed to PvP where having those extra Deep Wounds could prove extremely useful. You think of it too highly in PvE. Sure, it's extremely powerful, but compared to other things it's not worth it. Infact, if you're so uptight about it grab someone with Foul Feast or something, and get him to remove Weakness from you when you get hit by it from Wearying Strike if you're on a Warrior. It'll be better for the 'Sin (Assassins Remedy) and the Warrior.

P.S: I'm curious if you've used a WE Warrior before. The fact you think that one will run out of energy on a WE Scythe amuses me. Tell me, did you even try positioning yourself properly?

Saraneth · Feb 16, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

...a war can keep a target perma locked...

A hammer war in pve's most likely gonna be rolling [[Earth Shaker], which means that more than one target is proabably going to get knock locked.
This, as you know, is a definite plus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

First i assume you are talking scythe WE, in which case there is no attack skill that requires adrenaline, thus no way to buff your dps through adrenaline attacks.

Pretty sure he's talking about charging skills like SY through the process of spamming [mystic sweep][eremites attack][power attack]. Since he's mostly using nrg skills, the build up of SY and other adren skills won't be hindered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

If you are experienced in playing melee, you should know that YOU the attacker must have a reliable deep wound. Give me a single viable melee build that does not have deep wound.

[build=OQoiExpMZXwc1cJU8WyXJDGDCA]
Of course, there's room for change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

So a conditional deep wound every 15 second...

[[Finish Him] will be ultilized more than every 15 seconds with an ally running [[Assassin's Promise], as Tyla pointed out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

that target WILL die in another hit or so.

That's the point of the skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

I thought we are talking about sin vs war dps here, not team based builds?

Unless you're running around out there trashing mobs on your own, sin and war dps will always be relative to their importance to the team, which by way of support, will try to optimize its dmg through buffs and other junk.

Stealth Bomberman · Feb 16, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

[warrior's endurance]

elite slot used, no moar [dragon slash]

uhhh to OP:

dps in gw is a joke. as long as ur killing in PvE/PvP theres no problem or reason to wonder who is stronger bc the job is gettin done.

compare dps with a derv or glass arrows ranger. not classes designed to abuse it.

Lyynyyrd · Feb 16, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Bomberman

elite slot used, no moar [dragon slash]

DSlash is a utility skill and is irrelevant in a debate about pure DPS.

fireflyry · Feb 16, 2009, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

People are forgetting that Moebius strike only recharges skills when hitting a foe at half health or less. In PvE, normal enemies die too fast to take advantage of Moebius, and bosses don't lose enough HP by the time you hit Moebius for it to recharge. Then there's heals. Once that Moebius hits and DOESN'T recharge, your dps ends, you have to go back to the original chain all over again.

Say what?

Your forgetting the core mechanic 99% of PvE Sins utilize for their DPS.

[skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill]

Pay particular attention to the recharge times.You don't need it's bonus to keep DB spam going and AoE DPS pumping out.Once your target drops it's a few seconds to get it going again.

The bonus has nothing to do with it's use.

The 2 second recharge time and conditional "must follow a dual" is all that is required to keep DB spam running.

You would be correct in respects to instagib builds but that's a tiny minority of Sins and they would pick [skill]assassin's promise[/skill] over [skill]Moebius Strike[/skill] any day of the week, for blatantly obvious reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Sins are stuck with 70+whatever their insignias give + 7 max for the subpar weapon mods.

[skill]critical agility[/skill]

Most Sins max this title and skill early on as it only takes a few hours, well known to be the easiest title in the game, and is integral to the majority of PvE builds now.

It's completely changed the role of the Sin, who can quite easily tank most areas now.

As for the thread I have to agree with those that state both classes have high DPS to offer, while both also have their strengths and weaknesses.

Never been a fan of "What's bestest?" threads.To many variables to consider imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

If you are experienced in playing melee, you should know that YOU the attacker must have a reliable deep wound. Give me a single viable melee build that does not have deep wound.

Most DB/MS builds, Dragon Slash, etc, etc.

You seem to forget that for many melee builds deep wound is counter intuitive to overall DPS or function.

Vazze · Feb 16, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkingofaname

You are not understanding the concept of armor. High armor reduce all non-armor ignoring damage in equal proportions. Scythe has the 2nd highest dps of all weapons (hammer being 1st), meaning all things equal, scythe will do more damage than a sword or axe no matter what armor you are hitting.

I suggest you go and check "damage" on wiki, it is a good start, then go back to nameless and test on higher armor if you don't believe or understand what's written there.

Rick Thene · Feb 16, 2009, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Let's take a gander...

The usual DSlash bar looks like this:
[Dragon Slash][For Great Justice][Enduring Harmony][Flail][Enraging Charge]

Which leaves 3 slots open for utility.

The usual MS/DB bar looks something like this:
[Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Moebius Strike][Critical Agility][Critical Eye]

Which leaves 2 slots open for utility, however, DB deals armour-ignoring AoE damage to adjacent foes.

Both bars can easily run SY!
Neither really outclass each other in terms of DPS or usefulness, and it honestly comes down to personal preference.
I feel that the Sin is easier to gimp, while having slightly more offense then the Warrior.

DreamRunner · Feb 16, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

Nothing stop an assassin from taking [save yourselves!] on their bar.

But that is a warrior skill. The point he was making was that the assassins' skill tree offers no party support.